Mormon Transhumanist Association

I have read some heated discussions online regarding the FLDS commune and whether the government should have raided them.  I tend to view the treatment of the teenage women (being married off at age fourteen and fifteen to men who are usually many decades older, while their peer-age suitors are often being driven off) as being a form of "soft-style abuse."  The girls were so heavily indoctrinated/socially conditioned from birth that "hard-style" abuse (beatings, being locked up, torture, etc.) is usually not necessary.  I am also very disturbed by the men at the top of the hierarchy having the absolute power to take employment, housing, property and even family away from those who try to stand up to them.

Some have argued this is a Libertarian "human rights" issue and that these girls and their society should have been left alone (after all, they were not being beaten, locked up, tortured, etc..., lol).  But I think a smart cult leader knows the superior value of indoctrination over crudely applied violence.  I will say that I consider the way Brigham Young dealt with polygamy (both personally and in terms of leading Mormon society) as being very enlightened compared to the FLDS.      

I'd like to know the thoughts of the people here regarding this issue as it relates to the MTA. 

John Grigg

   

 

I have no idea.  I waffle all over the map when trying to know what the government should do in such a satiation.

 

I think it is terribly immoral the way the leaders of any hierarchy abuse those below them.  Any hierarchy is just plain immoral in my book.  And leaders of organizations like the FLDS are the worst of the worst to me.  But, that does not give the right of another hierarchy, the government, to abuse their power (or the power of the majority to abuse any minority) to go in a try to stop what is going on, and what many of the FLDS clearly want and have freely chosen.

 

To me, it is all about information and communication - not being alone and isolated.  Rather than raiding compounds and forcefully kidnapping children (yet more evil isolation and separation), there should be people that simply get involved with all such religions and laws set so that things cannot remain secretive and closed to such.  Outside people should have access to children that may be interested in hearing other points of view about what is going on, and so on.  To ensure that all are really choosing what they truly want, with full knowledge of other possible alternatives.  The only thing that should be outlawed is anything that denies peoples access to such information - such as church leaders preventing other community members from participating in church activities - and such.

 

I don't think that the US government were right when they raided the FLDS, eventhough I do not agree with their lifestyle. I think there should be a law against isolation of children. In Sweden there is a set scedule for education containing all the things all children have to learn in school starting when they are six years old. Schools who do not teach those things are not allowed. It is extremely difficult for religious groups to get permission to run their own schools since most of them oppose to one or a few of the subjects that has to be taught. The teachings include all important subjects such as language, maths, geography, computers, politics and religions. I don't agree to 100% with this scedule, but I think the idea is good. It protects children from getting brainwashed to the extreme.  

When it comes to polygamy I don't think there should be a prohibition against it. I am only opposed to arranged marriages.

I agree that polygamy is not, in itself, the problem. The problems are abuse and neglect, whether found in polygamous or monogamous relations. So long as persons of sufficient age mutually desire to engage in polygamous relations, we shouldn't try to stop them.

In this particular case, we've seen Texas officials indiscriminatly shut down an entire community and separate its children from their parents. Such behavior is quite as criminal, if not more so, than that they claim to be acting against.

Isis:

I think there should be a law against isolation of children. In Sweden there is a set scedule for education containing all the things all children have to learn in school starting when they are six years old. Schools who do not teach those things are not allowed.

Yes, that sounds like a great set of laws.

And I agee with everything everyone has said here.

Brent_Allsop:

Isis:

I think there should be a law against isolation of children. In Sweden there is a set scedule for education containing all the things all children have to learn in school starting when they are six years old. Schools who do not teach those things are not allowed.

Yes, that sounds like a great set of laws.

And I agee with everything everyone has said here.

While I agree that there are benefits from this mentality, I disagree with it, because in my opinion it limits parental freedom a little too much. I have spoken with Norwegians about this issue too. They have similar legislation and social programs there. In Norway, you are abnormal if you do not place your child in state-sponsored day care at about one year of age.

An American woman I know who is married to a Norwegian says she often complains about the social stigmatization of women who choose to stay at home to raise their children. She argues, if a society really values women's rights, it will allow women to choose how they want to raise their children, not shun them for failing to conform to social expectations. The Norwegian Janteloven, while fostering strong equality, also encourages strict social conformity, and promotes subtler forms of ethnocentrism.

I think that it is better to allow people more freedom, even if it means that a small minority of people will choose to live in ways we don't appreciate. Take the Amish, for instance. There's hardly another country in the world where they could flourish as well as they have here in the US.

That said, I still believe that the law should intervene if there is strong evidence of child abuse.

As a libertarian I do not agree with the with the mentality which encourages social conformity, such as the common opinion in Norway that it is not normal to stay at home with children. That does however have little to do with the law which gives every child from six years of age the right to learn certain things.

It was only recently that the Hare Krishna school of Sweden had to shut down because the number of children attending to it were too few. The Hare Krishna were as any other group in Sweden allowed to run a school because they followed the government's educational program beside the teachings of their own tradition. The long term result was in this case that children would leave the Hare Krishna society as soon as they turned eighteen, thus the school eventually had to shut down with only a limited number staying to produce coming generations.

My opinion is that if a belief system can not stand up to, and last through all essential truths of the world, it by itself may not be enough truthful.

Isis:

As a libertarian I do not agree with the with the mentality which encourages social conformity, such as the common opinion in Norway that it is not normal to stay at home with children. That does however have little to do with the law which gives every child from six years of age the right to learn certain things.

It was only recently that the Hare Krishna school of Sweden had to shut down because the number of children attending to it were too few. The Hare Krishna were as any other group in Sweden allowed to run a school because they followed the government's educational program beside the teachings of their own tradition. The long term result was in this case that children would leave the Hare Krishna society as soon as they turned eighteen, thus the school eventually had to shut down with only a limited number staying to produce coming generations.

My opinion is that if a belief system can not stand up to, and last through all essential truths of the world, it by itself may not be enough truthful.

This is interesting, Isis. I mostly agree with you and tend to be libertarian myself, but it's also hard to enforce these kinds of laws without fostering a sort of indoctrination by the state. Try as it might, it is usually impossible for the state to avoid teaching values, some of which are at odds with parents' values. Do these parents have a right to withdraw their children from school in order to avoid having them be taught values with which they disagree?

I'm not necessarily trying to advocate one side or the other, but I think that the issues are complex. In either instance there are downsides. On the one hand, parents' liberties are infringed upon. On the other hand, there is an increase in extremism.

Cheers,
Carl

I went to a public school, and it took me years to recover from the socialistic brainwash that I was put through along with lessons in a lot of subjects that I will be forever grateful that I learned. When the time comes for my son to go to school I wish to get the permission for home education which is extremely difficult in this country. I think it will become easier though since we have a conservative government now. But that may change - hopefully for the better than has ever been.

One way to get the permission for home education is to be on a long journey. I am hoping to somehow be sailing again, with my son and with others, by the time my son is six. There will ofcourse be values put into my education, and they will be my values.

The educational plan does not contain values by itself - it only specifiy what every child has the right to know. The school is mixing it with values, but that does not really matter as long as everyone gets the basic information. What is dangerous is isolation and false indoctrination, and to be kept away from important and common knowledge. That cannot happen with this law.

As long as the state allows parents to teach their own children with the requirement that they be allowed to receive this basic information, I think it sounds like a good idea. Thanks for sharing your views!

By the way, I should add that it is good to hear your experiences, and to understand your point of view better. I like the way you talked about how you have both good and bad memories of your school education. It's interesting to get this perspective of what it's like in another country.

Have a great day!
Carl

I agree with the ACLU's stated perspective on this issue:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9182798?source=rss

Regardless of disagreements I may have with FLDS views, this is good news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/22/us/22cnd-polygamy.html?em&ex=1211601600&en=e3b878c8477f5993&ei=5087%0A