Mormon Transhumanist Association

I spent quite a few hours playing Command and Conquer 3 as the bad guys, the Brotherhood of Nod.  Kane is their seemingly immortal leader who has me in the climactic last level (the player/leader of his armies) capture an alien teleportation gate so the universe will be open to Kane and his inner circle.  There is such a buildup to the final FMV cut scene when Kane (played by actor Joseph D. Kukan) invites me/the player to ascend with him to a greater reality.  I really felt I would see something very impressive in terms of storyline and FX.  But instead I get to see Kane walk behind a big painted wooden board (it's supposed to be a wall in his command center) toward a glowing light.  And that is it!  My jaw dropped when I realized that was it.  Did they run out of money? lol

It got me to thinking about other disappointments in my life and possible upcoming let-downs.  Will there really be life after death?  Does the LDS Church really have the truth and is it what is says it is?  Are we going to find cryonics actually works?  Is God really going to send billions of people to Hell as the Evangelicals claim?  Will good/human liberty actually triumph over evil/human tyranny?  The list goes on.  Do any of you have similar moments like this?

John Grigg

    

John, here are my perspectives.

If there is no spirit consciousness after death, or if there is no eventual resurrection, you won't care. Embrace that. Although I don't desire death, I don't fear it. I fear hell. Not in the traditional sense, which Mormon scripture clearly rejects. Rather, I fear hell as the horrible things we can do to each other.

The LDS Church certainly does NOT have all truth. Mormon scripture (such as the Book of Mormon) explicitly rejects infallibility and completeness. There are many things yet to be revealed, as Joseph claimed. Even God continues to progress in knowledge, according to many Mormon prophets. Given that the LDS Church does not have all truth, it can hardly make infallible or complete claims regarding the extent of truth it has. The best we can do is appeal to whatever wisdom and inspiration we might have, and work from there.

Cryonics may or may not work, but that is hardly the full extent of reasonable hope in resurrection. There are many possible means, although speculative and hypothetical, for resurrection. Personally, I would be gravely disappointed if cryonics ever proved to be the only possible means of resurrection. It won't remotely complete the prophetic work of universal resurrection. That said, I think it may prove valuable in some cases.

If a being that calls itself "god" sends billions of persons to hell, as the Evangelicals claim, then that being is not worthy of worship or the title it claims for itself. Send me to hell with the Mormon Transhumanists, and we'll make a heaven of it. I suspect heaven never will be built except upon the persistent application of work according to natural principles.

I hope happiness will continue increasingly to overcome oppression. My faith is in such an effort. This is, so far as I am concerned, what it means to have faith in Christ: trust in our ability to work together to overcome the conflicts between and among our wills, desires and laws. We are called by the spirit of God to take the name of Christ and act as saviors. We are called to participate in the atonement. This is essential to my faith and hope.

All of that aside, I do, of course, pass through my moments of fear; and I haven't met an honest person who would say otherwise. Usually, peace returns when I start working again -- not letting the fear stop me from caring.

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(can't get rid of the above garbage.  Sorry.)

What I fear most, is death and non existence.  Burning in hell, feeling the pain, would be way better than nothing.  The knowledge that I didn't exist during the billions of years of human history, that I missed all that, or at best can't remember any of it, frustrates me to no end.

 

The fact that we are still so limited, and completely unable to communicate in any significant or spiritual effing way (compared to the trillions of times all things we will be able to do in 100 years) completely frustrates me, and is almost as bad / evil / hellish as non existence.  All isolation, both spiritual and physical is hell.  Lack of memory is hell.

 

But, I do know that one simple phenomenal moment of consciousness like say looking at a phenomenally red cheery, even though such is still spiritually unsharable with anyone else, is what makes it all worth it.  All the millions of generations of frustrating living and fighting for progress by our ancestors and their DNA is by far worth that even one moment of phenomenal life while experience one moment of red of which our ancestors living and frustrating effort made possible for us out of nothing/pure hell.

 

Yes, I definitely do have down days like that.  I just try with all I can muster, to continue the work our ancestors have been doing for millennia, knowing that they gave us all so much more than any of them had, with hope that things will just keep getting better and better for each generation.  Sure, we can't know just how much better things might become, if evil, isolation and stuff really are necessary when there are Gods, if there is a hell or not.  One thing is for sure, achieving phenomenal immortality from where we are now, is nothing compared to what our ancestors had to accomplish to create us.

 

I just eternally hope that all such evil can be overcome, that all can be saved from all hells and isolations.  And I will never give up hope, and trying as hard as I can, no matter how little of us left there ultimately is.

 

Do you think what you are describing will pass?  What helps you the most?

 

Brent Allsop

Brent, that which is not conscious simply cannot be frustrated.

Lincoln Cannon:

Brent, that which is not conscious simply cannot be frustrated.

 

Only if you define frustrated to only include that which one has conscious knowledge of.

 

And if you insist on such, please tell me what word to use.

 

And what do you call the pain and agony I am now just starting to realize and experience as I become more an more aware of all the history I missed before I was born?

 

Just because someone (the universe?) doesn’t know they are in hell, doesn’t mean they are not in hell just the same.

Brent, you are frustrated only because you are conscious. To the contrary of your assertion, it makes no rational sense to attribute frustration (let alone hell) to that which is not conscious.

I think we are just talking about different things or assuming different meanings in the words I am using?  I agree with you, but I am talking about something other than what we are conscious of.  And I am pointing out that, personally, I value something like being conscious in hell, above being nothing, even if at the time of being nothing, I am not aware of such.  And it pains me greatly (and I would think any rational being) knowing how many other people are dead or at best isolated from the rest of us.

 

Evidently you also simply have a differing preference or ordering of what you would prefer?

Well, I prefer to live . . . but to what point, I don't know. Some things may be worse than death.

Agreed.  But even that can be mitigated by the benefits of living, primarily the ability to make progress and dig out of any hell.  Even if such requires thousands of generations of living in a suffering hell, with very little progress, as long as there is the slightest chance our distant ancestors may have a significantly better life, I’d hope I’d be willing and able to suffer such for them, as our ancestors and their DNA clearly have done for us.

>Do you think what you are describing will pass?  What helps you the most?

Brent, Lincoln, I thank you both for your thoughtful and caring comments.  I feel at least somewhat better now.  As Lincoln said, such feelings are pretty normal to the current human condition.  I think what helps me is to go for a bicycle ride, read a good book, see a fun movie or fascinating documentary/educational program, things like that.  Or simply enjoy the fellowship (even if only online) of great people like yourselves.

John  : )